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    • #82805
      Feenix23
      Participant

        I’m just curious to know from others what is the feeling toward back country trail flagging. I have come across it in the wilderness, usually heading to alpine lakes, and generally think its litter and doesn’t belong. In the future I plan to remove it. I am also a mountain climber and in the climbing community this type of thing is highly frowned upon. Is there any etiquette amongst hi-lakers? Not that I’m saying anyone here does this. If you can’t navigate without the use of bright plastic ribbons you have no business in the back country I think.

      • #94009
        Brian Curtis
        Keymaster

          Oh man, you hit one of my hot buttons. Flags are litter, nothing more. If I see flags on a x-country trip and they aren’t marked they are going in my pocket just like any other litter I find. I have seen flags set for future trail re-routing and marked for fire or other boundaries, but the vast majority of flags should never have been hung.

        • #94010
          Joshua Cowart
          Participant

            No flagging please. Eat all of it up you want. I remove it all the time.

          • #94011
            Sandy McKean
            Participant

              I remove every flag I can get my hands on (except when they are placed by a survey crew — very rare).

              To those (and there are some) who claim the placing of flags can be justified, I say fine if you must, but just be sure you personally remove every flag you place (of course, their retort is that they can’t be expected to do that).

            • #94012
              Mark Harris
              Participant

                I would extend the question to rock cairns. I don’t really care for the idea of flagging. I have, however, come to appreciate a few rock cairns at times. Sometimes when going over very rocky terrain you have the option of going three different ways. None of which you can tell the end-game and for which a map won’t help with contour lines on 40′ intervals. In places, I would have spend a lot of time doubling back without cairns.

                What’s the difference in my opinion? SMALL rock cairns will disappear after a few years. They tend to be used in rocky terrain. Flagging is man-made and attached to trees where orienteering isn’t quite as hard.

              • #94013
                allison
                Participant

                  I’m with MH, they are handy and natural and oh so convenient at times.

                • #94014
                  Joshua Cowart
                  Participant

                    Cairns are good sometimes. I don’t really mind them. I just don’t want to see them every 20 ft.

                  • #94015
                    Brian Curtis
                    Keymaster

                      Cairns are little better then flags. They still promote development of tread by sending people on a single path. I have no problem with them on established trails where the trail might disappear in rocks or grass, but don’t like them at all where there is no trail. If there is no trail then a route shouldn’t be marked.

                    • #94016
                      Sandy McKean
                      Participant

                        I’ve been known to kick over many a rock cairn…..not all of them mind you, but most. Like Josh, it’s the “every 20 ft” ones that really bug me. If there is a single cairn, strategically placed to avoid an obvious confusion point, I usually leave it (even if there is no trail……old climber’s habit I guess).

                      • #94018
                        Keith Peter
                        Participant

                          It depends on what the flagging was used for. The flagging might have been used for a person making their trail into a lake where they had to hit a certain spot otherwise they may hit a cliff or vine maple patch. Or the flagging could have been used by a hunter to find his kill site. Either way the person probably should have retrieved their ribbon on the trip out, but then again maybe they plan to return. There is also surveys done in wilderness areas to survey tree population, pest infestation, etc. and sometimes flags are left to allow the person to come back to the same spot to re survey.

                        • #94019
                          Brian Curtis
                          Keymaster

                            My daughter did research on trees in MRNP last summer. They used GPSrs to find their plots, not flags. If flags are placed for any official purpose they will be marked.

                            Leaving litter behind because it will make your next trip to a lake quicker is inexcusable.

                            I was chatting with a back-country ranger once in Montana when she started complaining about people flagging routes. I said “You mean like this?” and I pulled a big handful of flags I’d pulled down earlier that day out of my pocket. She was quite grateful.

                          • #94017
                            Keith Peter
                            Participant

                              Ok I will respond to this but not make this as excuses.
                              GPS’s don’t always get signals they are very limited when it comes to Canyons, Draws, tree cover especially.
                              Having worked for the DNR we would routinely mark trails, roads,borders, do surveys and not always mark on the ribbon. Often color of ribbons dictates the usage i.e. blue- timber sale boundry, or sale location, white-culvert location or tree surveys. Having said that it was never done in Wilderness areas or areas like Wild Sky Wilderness that doesn’t fit the traditional Wilderness designation.
                              For me I have noticed that baloons. or helium filled foil baloons are much more of a problem as they seem to be everywhere.

                            • #94020
                              Brian Curtis
                              Keymaster

                                Yeah, there are lots of reasons outside wilderness that flags might be placed. When they are leading to a lake it is pretty obvious they aren’t there for any official reason. I found some a few years ago marking a site of a fire and I’ve seen them marking future trail re-routes. I left those in place. Flags marking off trail routes are the problematic ones.

                                And don’t get me started on the scourge of balloons!

                              • #94021
                                Keith Peter
                                Participant

                                  Yea Brian I had to throw that little balloon thing in there after remembering you GPS wavepoint was at a balloon on a planting trip 😆

                                • #94022
                                  allison
                                  Participant

                                    Surveyor tape being used for administrative purposes is never at issue.

                                  • #94023
                                    Keith Peter
                                    Participant

                                      😕

                                    • #94024
                                      Mark Harris
                                      Participant

                                        I once got the crap scared out of me by one of those balloons. Going cross country I cam across a cool looking cave in a rockfield. Curiousity got the best out of me and I took a quick look inside the shallow cave. I saw what looked liked a space blanket with a human figure underneath. I thought, “oh great, I get to be the guy who finds some person missing for a couple weeks.” I flipped it over to find it was a HUGE helium balloon laying on a quite convincing arrangment of rocks.

                                      • #94025
                                        Keith Peter
                                        Participant

                                          😆 😆

                                        • #94026
                                          John Corallo
                                          Participant

                                            Interesting topic. I have been saved by them quite a few times under horrendous conditions.
                                            I also have appreciated them in areas where super delicate alpine plants and lichen are located which would otherwise be trampled by the boots of those who follow any path that they choose.
                                            On the other side it is a bit sad when an obvious trail/path to a location is flagged beyond belief.
                                            So that said, if one goes in to Azure Lake please feel free to not follow the mile or so of the occasional flag that someone placed years ago. Rich Brown and I were thankful to stumble into them!

                                            Johnny

                                          • #94027
                                            Brian Curtis
                                            Keymaster

                                              The latest thinking seems to be that it is best to spread out in delicate plants. Is is even recommended that a party spread out through meadows and not walk single file. A single set of boots doesn’t do lasting damage, but multiple sets of boots do.

                                              I’ve never known anyone who placed flags to avoid delicate plants or lichens. That sure would be a good use for them, though!

                                              I’ve made the mistake of following flags and gotten into a bad situation. Just because someone hung flags doesn’t mean they knew where they were going.

                                            • #94028
                                              Sandy McKean
                                              Participant

                                                My statement below makes me feel like a “principles first, and principles only….and the hell with reality” right winger sort of guy (not my normal comfort zone)……… 😉 😀 😀

                                                When I’m out there, I will continue to remove every damn flag I ever see (except official ones), and the hell with arguments to the contrary 🙄 .

                                              • #94029
                                                Rich Brown
                                                Participant

                                                  That’s how we roll Johnny Boy! :mrgreen:

                                                • #94030
                                                  Sandy McKean
                                                  Participant

                                                    Here’s a photo from a 2004 trip where we went maybe 5 miles into a lake. This the pile of trash we found hanging in the trees. I doubt we even got all of them!

                                                    I guess someone was really, really worried about getting lost.

                                                  • #94031
                                                    Tyler Goodman
                                                    Participant

                                                      Wow! Either that, or they were throwing a birthday party!

                                                    • #94032
                                                      John Corallo
                                                      Participant

                                                        Sandy,

                                                        Your comfort zone is the response that you gave. Don’t apologize.

                                                      • #94033
                                                        Sandy McKean
                                                        Participant

                                                          John,

                                                          I am most comfortable with a philosophical outlook that all truth is relative, and that there is no such thing as The Truth to the exclusion of what others see as a different truth. Funny that tho, since I am basically a scientist kind of guy…..but apparently a scientist who doesn’t accept that Truth exists 😉 (except in the eye of the beholder). I’m probably best labeled as an existentialist (my literary hero is Samuel Beckett).

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